Corrections: Where I said "... and of my favorite scholar books ..." I should have said "... and one of my favorite scholarly books ...". Where I said "There are a number of a number of Persian ..." I should have said "There are a number of Persian ...". Where I said "... perhaps some very some small groups ..." I should have said "... perhaps some very small groups ...".
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
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Are JWs preaching Paul's Gospel or something beyond Paul's Gospel?
by Vanderhoven7 inpaul's gospel: .
now, brothers and sisters, i want to remind you of the gospel i preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand.
2 by this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word i preached to you.
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Disillusioned JW
How about "Jehovah's Witnesses Revealed Discussion Forum'"?
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
scholar is correct in saying that 'Porphyry was the first person to introduce the idea that Daniel was not a work of the 6th century but was written much later in the time of the Seleucids in the 2nd century". I wish that the correct works of Porphyry were extant so that I could read (in an English translation) what he said about Christianity. He might have had some strong evidence against many of the core claims of Christianity and its NT Bible. Likewise I wish that the complete works of Celsus survived, for the same reason. Celsus "was a 2nd-century Greek philosopher and opponent of early Christianity" (that quote is from Wikipedia).
Regarding " 'higher criticism' of the Bible" I am fascinated by it. Consider for example something which The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary On the Bible: Including the Apocrypha; with General Articles [copyright 1971 by Abingdon Press, and of my favorite scholar books by 'Christendom', an ecumenical book authored by Jews, Protestants, and Roman Catholics] says on pages 436-437 as part of the evidence of the book of Daniel being authored under a false name and having been written no earlier than the 2nd century B.C.E.
'There are a number of a number of Persian and Greek words in the text. E.g. the name of one of the musical instruments in 3:5 transcribes a word that is not only Greek but found with this meaning nowhere in Greek literature before the 2nd cent. B.C. The name "Chaldeans" is also used in a special sense it did not acquire till long after the Exile (see below on 1:3-5). The fact that the book in the Hebrew Bible is placed among the Writings rather than the Prophets indicates a late date; if it had been in existence before ca. 200 B.C. it probably would have been included rather among the Prophets, as it now stands in the English Bible. Writing ca. 180 Jeshua ben Sira lists the heroes of the faith from Enoch, Noah, and Abraham through Nehemiah (Ecclus. 44-49) but makes no mention of Dan., evidently because he does not know of the book about him. On the other had Dan. and his 3 companions are mentioned in 1 Macc.2:59-60, probably composed late in the 2nd cent., and fragments of the book apparently produced ca. the same time have been found among the Dead Sea scrolls.' The next paragraph in the book provides further evidence that the book was written about the year 164 B.C.E, including pertaining to the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Other portions in the article about "The Book Of Daniel" (by George A. F. Knight) in the commentary book provide further evidence in support of a date of about 164 B.C.E for the book of Daniel.
Jeffro, I very strongly think you are correct in saying the following. "Setting aside the exaggerated end times claims about a hypothetical future, there are no details in Daniel requiring knowledge beyond around 164 BCE. (Daniel was in circulation by the end of that century so writing couldn’t have been much later than 164 B.C.E either.)
Christian re-interpretations that some of the elements refer to the Roman Empire, to Jesus, or to the modern era are incorrect and all the elements in Daniel can be identified with events up to the 2nd century B.C.E." The only reservation I have about those words is that the Roman Empire and its dissolution seem to well fit the Daniel chapter 2 in regards to the description of the iron legs and of feet of the image.
In contrast the WTS' interpretation of a so-called Anglo-American world power being indicated is highly problematic to me. That is largely because the USA (after it won it war of independence) and Great Britain were never combined together as one kingdom, one nation, or even one world power. The USA was even at war with Britain during the war of 1812 when England invaded the USA and attempted to take it over, something I first learned about in social studies (history) classes in public school (first learned in high school, if not first learned in grade school). Though in later times the USA has often been allied with Great Britain (including defending it militarily during WW1 and WW2) it has not really been part of an Anglo-American world power.
When I was an active strongly believing JW I thought that the WTS' interpretation of part of Daniel chapter 2 as pertaining to the Anglo-American world power was a mainstream idea of modern Christianity. After I started doing independent research upon the Bible I was shocked to learn that other than the JW no Christian group (other than perhaps some very some small groups) have that idea, not even the SDA have that idea.
Jeffro, you are correct in saying the following. "Everything in Daniel 11 and12 can be readily associated with events up until the Seleucid period (apart from the exaggerated claims about a hypothetical future that aren’t real at all). It has nothing at all to do with “our day”. "'It’s funny how the threshold for evidence that JWs (and many other religious people) expect from others is a lot higher than for the ‘evidence’ they accept for their own dogmatic superstitions."
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PIMO Bethel Elder Has Special Message & Speaks out
by Newly Enlightened ina pimo elder at bethel has come forward with a special message posted on reddit.. https://www.reddit.com/gallery/v9mgao.
the dated pictures attached are "proof conclusive" that this is for real.
no outside guests are allowed inside bethel at this time.
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Disillusioned JW
Raymond Franz in the 4th Ed. of his Crisis of Conscience book on pages 84-85 says that in the year 1975 many Bethel workers were very unhappy with the their situation at Bethel.
M. James Penton in the 1st Ed. of his Apocalypse Delayed book on page 225 says that Rutherford "liked to drink ...." It also says that during the Rutherford era at WT headquarters that "Drinking, then, almost became part of a cult of machismo into which new workers were usually quickly inducted." The page also says the following. "Since Rutherford's death, drinking has continued to be common at Bethel and Watch Tower officials who can afford to do so will have cabinets well stocked with expensive liquors."
The petition that is linked to in the first post of this topic thread is interesting. It might make some impact if it is brought to the attention of numerous governments and and numerous news agencies around the world.
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Disillusioned JW
Since the WTS claims to be concerned about the environment and ecology, I am surprised that they told the congregational literature departments to discard the publications without saying to do so by recycling them.
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Capitol Attack Hearings
by shadowclone inhearings are on the schedule for abc, bbc, cbs, cnn, msnbc and nbc.
not on fox "news".. will you be watching?
or maybe .
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Disillusioned JW
Though the hearings apparently weren't broadcast on cable Fox News, in my metropolitan area (which is very liberal) they were broadcast over the air on the local TV Fox News station (along with ABC, CBS, NBC, and PBS).
Hundreds (not simply a few, not simply 3 to 7) of rioters stormed into the Capitol building and seriously injured some police officers and killed at least one of them. However, I didn't see any of the rioters using guns or carrying guns, though some had other weapons (that is, objects they used as weapons) with them. Trump made some comments (including saying to be "wild") which motivated/encouraged many of the rioters (and which caused millions of people to falsely think the U.S. presidential election was stolen from Trump), but none of Trump's words explicitly said to be violent at the U.S. Capitol building.
Other than having a political purpose, I can't think of any reason why congress is doing its investigation and hearings, since the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) is doing their own investigation, arrests, and prosecution of individual people involved.
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540
Simple Question Re 1914
by Slidin Fast inwt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!
and the end times.
a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?
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Disillusioned JW
Jeffro, scholar presumes that the writer of the book of Daniel is sincere in everything he wrote in the book of Daniel (and not writing a story intended to be thought of as fiction to some extent). scholar presumes that all of the books of the Bible are honestly written. Likewise the WTS claims that all of the books of the Bible are honestly written; after all they claim that all of the books of the Bible are Jehovah God's word.
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction/Revision: The last paragraph of my prior post is now revised to say the following.
Note for the example the following. Genesis 32:28-29 records an angel as saying that Jacob's "name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel", but 2.5 chapters later, in Genesis 35:18, Genesis records God telling Jacob "no longer is your name to to be called Jacob, but Israel your name will become." Notice that in one case an angel is saying the name will be changed but that in another case God is saying it. Though these examples might not be a contradiction of each other, it is still odd that Jacob is being told that at two different times (once by angel and once by God). The latter part of Genesis 35:18 says "And he began to call his name Israel" yet verses 14, 22, 27, and 29 still say Jacob even though verse 21 says Israel, and 36:6 says Jacob instead of Israel. It is odd that chapter 35 keeps switching back and forth from the use of the name Jacob to the name Israel, and 37:1-2 says Jacob instead of Israel, but the idea of somewhat conflicting documentary sources being combined makes sense of this.
I remember that at least one time when I was an active JW I was perplexed why the book of Genesis kept switching back and forth in its use of the names Jacob and Israel for the some person - even after the portion of the narrative which said the name change by God took effect. Back then I didn't know of the documentary hypothesis.
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Jesus is Michael the Archangel
by Fisherman inonly jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.
“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.
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Disillusioned JW
Fisherman, what you said about accounts in the Bible of God appearing and of angels being addressed as Jehovah, might be the way those biblical accounts were meant to be interpreted, but I lean towards a different view. When I contemplated those accounts a number of years ago I was thinking those accounts have internal contradictions, and/or contradict other parts of the Bible. In addition, now I see it as possible evidence of the scholarly documentary hypothesis that some stories in the OT are a combination of conflicting sources from two or more areas - namely those from the northern kingdom (Israel) who primarily called God by the title/name of Elohim, those from the southern kingdom (Judah) who primarily called God by the name of Yahweh/Jehovah, those from the Priestly class, and the Deuteronomist source.
Note for the example the following. Genesis 32:28-29 9 records an angel as saying that Jacob's "name will no longer be called Jacob but Israel", but 2.5 chapters later, in Genesis 35:18 says God tells Jacob "no longer is your name to to be called Jacob, but Israel your name will become." Notice that in one case an angel is saying the name will be changed but that in another case God is saying it. The latter part of 35:18 says "And he began to call his name Israel" yet verse 14, 22, 27, and 29 still say Jacob even though verse 21 says Israel, and 36:6 says Jacob instead of Israel, and 37:1-2 also says Jacob instead of Israel. It is odd that chapter 35 keeps switching back and forth from the use of the name Jacob to the name Israel, but the idea of somewhat conflicting documentary sources being used makes sense of this.
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My personal thoughts on Ray Franz
by Terry inthe death of ray franz hit me harder than i would have thought.. i had to reflect for awhile....alone......and quietly.. .
after all, fine people die every day and some of them are indispensable, yet, we go on....don't we?.
but, ray franz was something that can only be described in the phrase sui generis (one of a kind).. my task was to ask myself what it was that made ray so singular, potent and admirable without a trace of scandal or ill will attached to his memory.. .
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Disillusioned JW
Thanks dropoffyourkeylee for bringing to my attention that "neither of the Carl Olaf Jonsson books with pdf links are available at the previously posted link." I was surprised when you informed me of such, since the link for The Sign of the Last Days – When? book had worked for me the prior time I had used it. I now notice that it doesn't work, but have no worry for today I discovered that both books can be read online at https://archive.org/ and downloaded from that site. Visit that site and then type in Carl Olof Jonsson's name in the search bar. You will then see working links to both of his books. I tested those links earlier today and downloaded both of the books from that web site.